29 minutes agosolarlunareclipse:
plor20:
I think the key difference, at least for me, in attitude towards Ah Heng and XY, is that Ah Heng never had a set of standards imposed upon her for the man she wanted to marry or love.
I understand how you would mark XY's hypocrisy against her since I don't love her for this either. However, I don't see A Heng as being more justified in having an affair with CC just because she didn't have the requirement of being the only woman in his life or the fact that she really loved CC while XY was only using Jing as a coping mechanism/mask and was stringing him along because that's what CX wanted her to do. If I judge the infidelity itself, I see A Heng's case as worse in terms of degree. Also, I personally place more of the blame on the person who is engaged/married than the person partaking in an affair with the engaged/married person, although I find both behaviors to be utterly reprehensible.
plor20:
I don't share your point that states Ah Heng lacked of filelity in her marriage at all. I even don't find her unfaithful.
1. Qing Yang arranged the connection between Shao Hao and Ah Heng throught engagement contract since she was a baby (Shao Hao was thousands of years old at that time). It was the way to protect both Shao Hao and Qing Yang's mother and his siblings. She knew nothing and forced in this arrangement.
2. She loved Chi You and wanted to dissolved the engagement but then she was forced to marry Shao Hao who fully awared of her real love and had no expectation of wife. The only reason made that marriage progress was Jan emperor's death so that Chi You could not show up in their promised reunion during the spring festival and her love and care for her mother and her brothers (Zhong Yi explained to her the importance of the marriage to the fate of her Mother, Queen Lei Zhu as well as of her brothers.
3. Entering the marriage, both Ah Heng and Shao Hao made ally agreement on the first night of their marriage. Thus, in front of public and other people, they treated themselves as husband and wife but behind the scene they were not. Ah Heng would help Shao Hao to get the throne and she could decide her future and leave the marriage. It was Shao Hao talk to himself that he did need wife, he just care for the throne. And Shao Hao knew the relationship between Ah Heng and Chi You after the marriage or in other words, Ah Heng was quite straight forward about the matter of Chi You with Shao Hao.
4. Due to XY's birth and Qing Yang's death (Chi You was severely injured and disappeared for 5 years), Ah Heng stayed with Shao Hao (still ally agreement), but then Shao hao failed his promise to treat QY's mother and siblings as his own mother and siblings. He refused to send troop to help Zhong Yi which partly led to CX's father's death. This is the reason that Ah Heng terminated their marriage.
Since in my opinion Ah Heng was not unfaithful, there is no parallel infidelity between XY and her mother.
@plor20,
Ah Heng's infidelity is somewhat more nuanced compared to XY's. She married for political stability and was already pregnant with XY before the wedding. Ah Heng loved Chiyou while she was engaged and only reunited with him, I believe, after divorcing Shao Hao and just before summoning the sun in an attempt to end the war.
XY was conceived after Ah Heng married to Shao Hao. About 4 years after the wedding, she reunioned with Chi You. Then she died for 200 years. XY was conceived shortly after her resurrection (by Chi You).
I don't share your point that states Ah Heng was infidel in her marriage at all. I even don't find her infidel.H19279:
Sure, as you listed, there were extenuating circumstances to A Heng's extramarital affair. I don't judge her too harshly, given the extenuating circumstances. However, there were also many extenuating circumstances to XY's situation with Jing.
- She didn't see XL, her true love, as a choice because of her loyalty to CX. I won't fault her for her loyalty, or for prioritizing CX over her own happiness.
- Jing knew she didn't really like him and verbally agreed to wait indefinitely for her--even if she never ended up liking him, thereby agreeing to let her use him as a coping mechanism/mask.
- She was single. She never promised anyone, including XL, not to get involved with Jing. Technically, we can't classify XY's behavior as infidelity since the definition of infidelity is "the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner."
- She was ready to break off her entanglement with Jing, but CX asked her to keep stringing Jing along.
- Jing did his best to appeal to her pity for his situation, telling her sob stories about how FFYY was disgusted by him, making it even harder for XY to distance herself from him.
- XY didn't owe anything to FFYY. If anything, FFYY attempted to assassinate CX, XY's most important person. If anyone owed anything to FFYY, it was Jing, not XY.
Given all these extenuating circumstances, I'm not going to judge XY too harshly for her admittedly unsavory behavior. Unfortunately, XY's past trauma made her more susceptible to go along with Jing's manipulative and controlling behavior, even though she saw through his manipulations. She didn't see through CX's behavior because she refused to believe that he would do anything to harm her. Her trust in CX was naive, but understandable, given the promise they had made to their family to always protect each other.
For his part, if XL wanted to cause XY the least amount of trauma, he should have clearly explained the situation to her: yes, he loved her, but he couldn't choose her over his responsibilities to GG and his men. This would have allowed for both of them to come to a level-headed agreement on how they wanted their relationship to proceed. Instead, the way he straight up ghosted her after 37 years, pretended that her feelings for him were unrequited, and pushed her towards reconciling with her manipulator, Tu Shan Jing, left her having to deal with a whole truckload of cognitive dissonance and no doubt contributed to her psychological trauma, making her even more susceptible to Jing and CX's manipulations. Here is one of the few times I agreed with Jing in the entire novel:
“Since Xiao Yao was born her life has determined that she can’t grow up like Ah Nian. Now that she’s grown up, no matter how painful and cruel the truth is, please tell Xiao Yao everything because only the truth can open her heart so that one day she can live carefree.”
-- Vol 3 Ch 3 (Chapter 36)
Too bad XL didn't afford XY this same courtesy. All the characters in LYF display a whole lot of disturbing behaviors--so I personally don't feel the need to hate on XY for her inadequacies.
XY was conceived after Ah Heng married to Shao Hao. About 4 years after the wedding, she reunioned with Chi You. Then she died for 200 years. XY was conceived shortly after her resurrection (by Chi You).
I don't know the nuances of A Heng and Chi You's situation since I've not read Once Promised, but from this summary, I find it irresponsible of them to risk bringing a child into this situation, no matter how much they loved each other.
Given all these extenuating circumstances, I'm not going to judge XY too harshly for her admittedly unsavory behavior.
I don't follow the topic related to XY's infidelity closely to know all the detail. In my opinion, there is infidel issue with XY. However, I am not harshly judge that she had ill morality because of that. The only cheating issue that I have with XY's behavior is
1. I am fine with the situation that XY loved one guy but chose other guy because the other guy was closer to her criteria of companion. She did not choose 17 or Jing for love. She chose him as her companion partner for lifetime.
2. However, when XY made the final choice of Jing, she should be committed to her choice and terminate her connection with XL (from chapter 33 onward). Of course, some can debate that XL already pushed her to Jing in chapter 32 and she had aware there was no future between them. She and Jing came to Bai Li to find more detail of the bug between her and XL. Her acting during the meeting with Voodoo king was a joke. Later, although (ok) XL refused to help her to remove the bug, she did not put any effort to remove the bug connection. Her behavior showed a double standard: she required Jing to treat her as the only one, but she could have emotional sharing with other man; she wanted Jing to serve her lifetime but she did not mind to attach her life fate with other man whose future was doomed and destined to die in near future. She delayed her wedding for more than 4 decades which shows her emotional lingering despite being engaged. It is quite similar to Jing's case that he loved XY and extracted the 15 year promise despite being engaged to unwanted girl. Jing should have dissolve his engagement before asking XY not to let any man into her heart and XY should have cleared up her emotional issue before accepting Jing's proposal. This view may share some common point with @plor20
( "In contrast, XY's infidelity occurred despite her talk about wanting a man who would only choose her and have her. She essentially couldn't live up to her own standards, making her words incredibly cheap." - plor20 )
@plor20
All the women in XY's lineage are somewhat cursed to experience infidelities, attributed to her grandmother. It has been discussed that her grandmother fell in love with the Xuan Yuan King before he attained his status. Essentially, her grandmother stole her grandfather from another woman, leading to a cycle of trauma and betrayal as he struggled to appease both wives. This turmoil culminated in their children turning against each other for revenge and power, at the behest of their mothers.
Very interesting observation to make connection between XY and her grandmother. There is something in common but not indentical in these cases. I don't think her grandmother's case is infidelity from her side but her grandfather's fault.
1. Xuan Yuan king made Miss Tong pregnant but betrayed her and proposed XY's grandmother.
2. XY's grandmother truely fell in love with Xuan Yuan King, she supported and fought along his side. She had not known Tong's existance until the day before the wedding.
3. It was not Ah Lei who had adultery but her man, Xuan Yuan King, was responsible for infidelity and the later tragedy happened between their children.
In term of morality, Ah Lei could have called off the wedding or had serious discussion with Xuan Yuan king. However, she ignored the issue.
I don't know the nuances of A Heng and Chi You's situation since I've not read Once Promised, but from this summary, I find it irresponsible of them to risk bringing a child into this situation, no matter how much they loved each other.
Ah Heng and Chi You were in love and did not have anti conception method at that time. However, XY was conceived after Shao Hao had got the throne, meaning she fulfilled her ally role in helping him with the crucial article - becoming Gaoxin's king. She could leave Gaoxin palace at that time. Ah Heng were about to leave her husband (just waiting for suitable circumstance) . Chi You did not know that Ah Heng got pregnant of his child when he got injured and disappeared (in the battle that Ah Heng's eldest brother was killed under Chi You's blow, the main reason that QY could not stand Chi You's blow is that he had got poisoned* ). He only got the hint that XY was his daughter before the last battle and got her confirmation when she was occupied by the solar power. Thus he decided to use his heart to save her (keep her alive) so that she could meet XY to fulfile her promise with her daughter, tell her the truth about him and their love and tell XY that he also loved her.
(*): Shao Hao asked Ah Heng to make a poison that could not be detected. That poison just impaired the suffered person's ability to concentrate his spiritual power. Ah Heng had made 2 doses. Shaohao used one dose for his father, making him feel weak and then forced him to abdicate. After that he gave the other dose to Qing Yang and advised QY to do the same to get the throne. QY was about to give his father the water jar with the poison but he changed his mind in the last minute. He did not know that Di Pang followed him and reported it to Xuan Yuan king. Xuan yuan King distrusted QY. However, Xuan Yuan king did not know that Qing Yang aborted the plan and Di Pang exchanged QY's water jar with that poisoned water. Thus he got poisoned and could not stand the blow from Chi You. QY at that time disguish himself as Xuan Yuan king and took the blow for his father (Chi You wanted to kill Xuan Yuan king since he killed Yu Wang - Sheng nong king who Chi You considered as his brother)
Her behavior showed a double standard: she required Jing to treat her as the only one, but she could have emotional sharing with other man; she wanted Jing to serve her lifetime but she did not mind to attach her life fate with other man whose future was doomed and destined to die in near future.
Agree this is a double standard on XY's part. However, Jing voluntarily accepted this double standard. He knew better than anyone that XY loved XL. Moreover, I don't think XY was trying to pull a fast one on Jing. Concerning the issue of XY giving Jing her heart, they had this conversation in Dragon Bone Prison:
“What if in my entire lifetime I’m not willing?”
“Then I’ll wait an entire lifetime. As long as you don’t disappear, then even if it’s an entire lifetime it will still be happy.”
-- Vol 1 Ch 8 (Chapter 8)
In my opinion, XY and Jing had the tacit understanding that XY was settling for him and didn't truly love him. They were both ok with this, and probably got engaged to give some legitimacy to their courtship and help XY's reputation after the FFB wedding robbery and the Hou seduction incidents.
She delayed her wedding for more than 4 decades shows her emotional lingering despite being engaged. It is quite similar to Jing's case that he loved XY and extracted the 15 year promise despite being engaged to unwanted girl.
I think TSJ is actually one of XY's shadow characters. They have quite a lot in common and find themselves in very similar situations.
Jing should have dissolve his engagement before asking XY not to let any man into her heart and XY should have cleared up her emotional issue before accepting Jing's proposal.
I can't argue about what should obviously have been the right order of operations here. However, XY didn't have to accept Jing's 15-year contract and Jing didn't have to propose to marry XY even though he knew she still loved XL. Both of them are equally at fault for their irresponsible choices.
Again, since Jing was fully aware of where XY's heart lay, I don't judge XY to harshly for accepting Jing's marriage proposal.
Sorry, folks keep using the word infidel. Infidel is a religious heretic, not someone who practices infidelity. I know it should be, but it's English, so you know it doesn't always make sense.
I believe infidelity is an act that only applies to the person who is in a relationship, not the 'other' person. The base of the word is fidelity, i.e. loyalty. The 'other' person has no loyalty, or expectation of loyalty -- unless they also have a spouse / significant other also -- so they aren't really committing infidelity.
What they are both committing is adultery. Adultery covers the committed person and the 'other' person, who is often labeled the 'homewrecker.' And both people are adulters. Though it is more about legal commitments, so we have the more common term, "cheaters."
She had not known Tong's existance until the day before the wedding.
I don't think this is true. IIRC from the previous conversation, when they met, Grandfather Emperor told Grandmother Empress he had a wife / girlfriend and wasn't interested in her. Basically he may have been attracted to her, but remained loyal. But she kept pestering him and bribed him with her powerful connections until he gave in. So, Grandmother Empress knew he was taken.
I don't think this is true. IIRC from the previous conversation, when they met, Grandfather Emperor told Grandmother Empress he had a wife / girlfriend and wasn't interested in her. Basically he may have been attracted to her, but remained loyal. But she kept pestering him and bribed him with her powerful connections until he gave in. So, Grandmother Empress knew he was taken.Kokuto:
Xuan Yuan king did not have any wife or official fiancee when Ah Lei met him.
Xuan Yuan society was much more open than other kingdom in term of sexual issue. He and miss Tong had sexual act when he was very young. He promised to give her a house to observe the moon in future. Xuan Yuan king initially did not like Ah Lei but she was full of pride and decided to chase him who was a single man at that time. Xuan Yuan King later (the night when Ah Heng sent the note about Zhu rong's plan where Zhong Yi died) recalled and he could not distingush who he really loved: the young, innocent girl tremble in his arms under the moonlight of the pride girl stepping in the sunset aura. In my opinion, Ah Lei had the right to chase for unmarried man. The tragedy was due to Xuan Yuan king's fault and Tong's grudge.
Note: Tong came to meet Ah Lei before the wedding when Tong was pregnant. She begged Ah Lei to cancel the wedding but Ah Lei ignored. Tong later got miscarriage and she cursed on Ah Lei's offsprings. Ah Lei e made quite big mistake here that she still went ahead of the wedding with a cheated man (it was clearly that he still had affair with Tong during dating and being aside Ah Lei). XY's grandfather was quite an art: cheated boyfriend to both women, exploited Ah Lei's intelligence and power, very poor father and husband (he could not control Tong's grudge toward his children with Ah Lei. Tong and her sons involved in the death of all queen Lei Zhu's sons). As he said, he was not suitable to be husband of anyone
Sorry, folks keep using the word infidel. Infidel is a religious heretic, not someone who practices infidelity. I know it should be, but it's English, so you know it doesn't always make sense.
Thank you for your verification. Very confusing word since many non english native speakers know the word fidel or fidelity which might be used for loyalty in romantic relationship. And one of the meaning of infidelity is lack of fidelity or loyalty. However as you say, infidel is strictly used in the context of religious belief.
What they are both committing is adultery. Adultery covers the committed person and the 'other' person, who is often labeled the 'homewrecker.' And both people are adulters. Though it is more about legal commitments, so we have the more common term, "cheaters."
According to Oxford dictionary (and The free dictionary that I usually use), adultery means " sex between a married person and somebody who is not their husband or wife " or "Consensual sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the spouse. " respectively.
P/s: I changed the word infidel in my previous posts into cheating or unfaithful or rephrased to lack of fidelity. Once again, thank for your insight in English vocabulary
liddi:
Since both of you have read Once Promised in its entirety, can I please clarify something with you. Was A Mei the founder of Jade Mountain? Do correct me if I am wrong but I was given to understand that she loved the Shen Nong king (Flame Emperor) but because he only loved another woman Ting Qi, she retreated to Jade Mountain, became the Royal Mother and never left. When she learnt of his death, heavy snow fell on Jade Mountain which was always spring all year round, the peach blossoms that bloomed all year round withered, and A Mei's hair turned grey overnight.
What was A Mei's powers? Was Jade Mountain's mysterious powers due to her, or had it always been this, and she merely harassed its inherent spiritual energy? I presume she would have been around the same age as the Shen Nong king and Xie Zu (and by extension the Xuan Yuan king) as well, since they were close friends in their youth, while Jade Mountain gave the impression of an ancient, otherworldly place.
Liddi, I've only finished chapter one of the book and have not been able to continue. My knowledge of Aheng and Chiyou story has been stitched together through numerous conversations. It's only my list of novels to finish. Hehe.
So I will relay the questions to H19279. ?
Liddi, I've only finished chapter one of the book and have not been able to continue. My knowledge of Aheng and Chiyou story has been stitched together through numerous conversations. It's only my list of novels to finish. Hehe.plor20:
Mine too. I keep getting sidetracked reading it, and had only properly covered the first chapter too, though I have read excerpts from other chapters. There is an interesting epilogue in the 2019 revised edition that covers the period when Xiao Yao was missing from Jade Mountain, and Cang Xuan and the Gao Xin king's ceaseless search for her. It mentions the chilling punishment the Gao Xin king sentenced the two maids whose thoughtless words caused Xiao Yao to run away - having to endure the daily torture of being buried alive but never dying, a punishment that would continue as long as Xiao Yao was not found - a chilling reminder of the ruthlessness that Gao Xin Shao Hao had in him, something that is very much mellowed out in Lost You Forever. We get to learn more about the evildoings of Yu Jiang's brother Xuan Ting, before Cang Xuan finally dealt with him. We also meet Feng Long's father Shen Nong Yi, and see how he would end up governing Zhi Yi City and Ze Province, after Xuan Ting was put to death.
It mentions the chilling punishment the Gao Xin king sentenced the two maids whose thoughtless words caused Xiao Yao to run away - having to daily endure the torture of being buried alive but never dying, a punishment that would continue as long as Xiao Yao was not found - a chilling reminder of the ruthlessness that Gao Xin Shao Hao had in him, something that is very much mellowed out in Lost You Forever.
Yeah, I have a hard time reconciling what I've heard of him in Once Promised and Daddy Emperor in LYF. They really don't seem like the same guy and I don't see him handing over everything he worked so hard and ruthlessly to claim, to CX. I'd love to see a book on his story, and the transformation.
So who did yellow emperor loved after all, Ah Lei or Tong? Trying to understand Yellow Emperor's thoughts from chapter 34, when he looked at XY and Jing.blabla100:
It's Tong Hua. Do you really expect a clear answer to that question? I got the feeling that he loved Tong, and then grew to love Ah Lei, but still loved Tong -- but he cared for power the most. And whatever feelings he had for them and they for him, it all went to crap as time went on, and their children started killing each other. By the time LYF rolled around, there was some rewriting of his memories amidst his regrets about his lovers, and his loneliness.
