Thank you so much, liddi! Eldest brother seems very similar to XLblabla100:
You're welcome! Yes, he reminds me very much of Xiang Liu - the way he protected those he loved, always kept his word, how he protected Zhu Yu - trying to minimise any pain she may have in the event he could not do what he hoped to. But it was for naught, as in spite of it all, Zhu Yu still learnt what grief meant, because she already loved him anyway. Zhu Yu continued to live in denial, continued to wait and hope, because it was the only coping mechanism for her. I wonder how Xiao Yao would cope... since it was a combination of grief and belief that she meant less than nothing to him. However, it also meant that she finally allowed herself to confront her true feelings for him. When she had time to settle her thoughts at last, would she finally be able to see the signs of everything he did for her, in spite of his well-laid plans?
Anyway, back to Zhu Yu. So great observation by Kathleen Chou when she pointed out the parallels between YaoLiu and QingYang-Zhu Yu, even within the context of the character diagram and the controversial hollowed out heart symbol. Love how she explained it - thank you @windiaaa041293 for sharing it!
plor20:
@liddi
Thank you for your clarification. It's been mind boggling for me when I encounter people who read the translated version of LYF with no requards or interest in putting those words in cultural context. Obviously, you only know what you've been taught, so I can't even be mad about it....you don't know what you don't know, right?
Yes, there is a need to have a cultural context, but understandable if one does not have that knowledge to draw from, so one can only project what one knows. Unfortunately with translated texts, it is not just cultural, but also the nuances which can sometimes be lost, or subject to the translator's interpretation. Still, one would hope that they would at least be open to listen when the context is explained, and while it may or may not change their opinions, it should hopefully revise their thought process accordingly.
in the context of a storysolarlunareclipse:
I can suspend my moral judgement and look at the extenuating circumstances behind XY's situation.
Why not both? I can examine the extenuating circumstances behind XY's situation. I can understand why she is the way she is while also deciding whether her choices and behaviours are healthy/unhealthy, acceptable/unacceptable etc. Why do I need to lower my standards or drop them altogether when I'm reading fiction? All of these things made up who I am and guided my evaluation and judgement, if I dropped them what am I evaluating this work on besides technicality?
When reading a novel I seek to understand the characters: their set-up; their motivations; their strengths and weaknesses. Throughout the novel, the characters' choices give insights into their development. Do they manage to overcome their weaknesses and maximise their strengths? Did they develop in a positive direction or a negative direction? Did they develop at all? And by the end of the novel, on the balance of things do I like this character? Do I find them compelling?
And I do take into account context in my evaluation. With regard to the particular point at hand; this isn't just my 21st-century standards. XY's father pointed comment to Jing about his engaged status; Jing and XY's act of hiding, and sneaking around points to the fact that what they are doing isn't all acceptable. Plus XY's resentment towards her mother's "affair" with her biological father suggests her negative view of unfaithfulness. Although I guess maybe for XY this only applies once you're married while engagement is fair-game.
All that said, I personally believe that Tong Hua intended to write XY as a shrewd but pitiful character rather than a dumb b*tch who was completely undeserving of XL, so I choose to overlook her shortcomings and not hate on her too much
I can find XY pitiful and also thinks she is selfish and makes some dumbass, selfish choices. I can also understand that her childhood experience played a huge role in her selfishness and dumbass behaviour which then makes her pitiful. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I'm not big on overlooking people's shortcomings (well, depends on how serious they are) - real life or reel life. Why do I need to? Acknowledging someone's shortcomings doesn't necessarily mean hating on them, it's holding them accountable for potentially shitty behaviour. In the real world, I set my boundaries and keep them at a distance as appropriate. For fictional characters, I talked about it and "hate" on them to my heart's content. After all, their feelings won't be hurt :-).
completely undeserving of XL
If this was the real world and I was a friend/family of XL (or FL and even Jing), I would hope and pray that he could extricate himself from this relationship ASAP. It's not that XY isn't deserving of love, it's just that she is a hot mess when it comes to romantic relationships and will bring nothing but drama into your life. And yes, it comes from her childhood. I've been through it with a few friends who got involved with their version of XY and, hoo, boy. But, much like in real life, people will love who they love. Until the fate between them ends, no well-meaning outside person can talk sense into them.
XY and Jing deserved each other.
In a way, Jing and XY are a good match. Their illness fit each other. It's an unhealthy match, but it's still a match. Kind of like two addicts whose relationship is based on their shared addiction.
Thus I don't fully agree with the point that says QY&Zhu Yu is foreshaddow for XL/XY-WXLH19279:
The person @windiaaa041293 quoted said this, which appeared to be missing from the Google translation:
（青陽/茱萸）是《曾許諾》的人物，茱萸原身是木頭，不懂情愛，愛而不自知， 青陽知道茱萸喜歡他，但他不說破。
(Qing Yang/Zhu Yu) are characters from Once Promised. Zhu Yu's original form was wood and did not understand love. She loved but was unaware of it. Qing Yang knew that Zhu Yu loved him, but he chose not to reveal it.
I read the chapter when Qing Yang died, and translated the part when Zhu Yu found out about his death. When he died, his final wish was for Shao Hao to watch over and protect his mother, Zhong Yi and A Heng as his own family. He too finally made his peace with his father, alleviating his distrust. He never mentioned Zhu Yu at any time before he died.
"Heartbroken? Heart in pain? I... I'm just a piece of rotten wood with a rotten core. How could I be heartbroken or in pain? Both Shao Hao and His Highness Qing Yang said I couldn't understand what heartache feels like. Out of curiosity, I begged His Highness to use magic to let me experience heartache once, but he said he could not do it. He even said that it was good not to be able to feel heartache, as I would never be heartbroken in my life... "
-- Zhu Yu, Once Promised, Vol 2 Ch14 (2019 revised edition)
Perhaps Eldest Brother did understand. But Eldest Brother who understood always kept Zhu Yu ignorant, just because he had unfinished responsibilities. Perhaps he once thought that one day, when the responsibilities on his shoulders were fulfilled, he would take Zhu Yu to wander the world, just like when they first met. If that day never came, he would rather Zhu Yu never understood, never knew what sadness was. But he did not know that Zhu Yu was finally sad after all.
-- A Heng, Once Promised, Vol 2 Ch14 (2019 revised edition)
I do agree that based on what little I know, Qing Yang and Zhu Yu's relationship was more lopsided, compared to Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao's. She took everything he said literally and he was the one with the upper hand here in terms of intellect, knowledge and experience.
Qing Yang knew that Zhu Yu loved him, but chose to keep her ignorant about her love. A Heng's observations seemed to imply that if he was finally free of his responsibilities, he would not have continued to keep Zhu Yu in the dark. If that day did come, he would have allowed Zhu Yu to understand the feelings she had for him was love. But why would he do that if he had no intention of reciprocating? If he never intended to reciprocate that love, letting Zhu Yu know would have broken her heart, when he himself told her it was good not to be able to feel heartache, which he went to great lengths to ensure she would never experience.
As such, it seems to indicate that Qing Yang does love Zhu Yu too, but would never have allowed that love to come to light, nor allowed her to realise her own love, if he had no way of ensuring she would not be heartbroken by the end of it. Does that make sense?
I definitely see parallels in the way that Qing Yang and Xiang Liu hoped to protect Zhu Yu and Xiao Yao respectively from heartache and grief, by keeping them in the dark, though there are marked differences.
Xiang Liu never made any promises he could not keep to Xiao Yao, and did his best to ensure she was totally disillusioned with him, in hopes her resentment would far outweigh any grief she might feel over his death.
Qing Yang on the other hand, gave Zhu Yu hope when he asked her to watch over Zhao Yun Palace. Perhaps he told her to wait, simply because he did not expect to perish at the battle of Ban Quan. He intended to poison his father but could not bring himself to do it, and ended up being poisoned instead by the older man, thus led to his death when he took the attack Chi Chen intended for his father. So in that sense, he fully intended to keep his promise to return, and would have, if fate had not intervened.
That being said, I agree with what you said, @blabla100. Both men underestimated the depth of love these women had for them, and despite their best efforts, failed to protect them from grief. Zhu Yu would continue to live in denial until she finally destroyed her own demon core and scattered her divine consciousness, which in turn transformed into the dogwood flowers that grew over Qing Yang's gravestone. At last, did she accept the fact by then that he would no longer return?
As for Xiao Yao, it is interesting that you said that in the end, her choice of where she would leave for showed that she chose him despite believing that he did not choose her. The ocean would always hold a special place for her - not only because of his blood which drew her, but her memories of him that laid hidden there. So leaving at last for the ocean to find a place to call home, is telling - that whatever the life she led, memories of him would sustain her through the grief and loss. I do not quite agree though that she replaced Cang Xuan with Xiang Liu. I don't believe Xiang Liu was ever a replacement for Cang Xuan. If anything, she loved him in spite of everything, despite repeatedly reminding herself that he was unsuitable, that he was Cang Xuan's enemy, that he resolutely refused to choose her.
I think the key difference, at least for me, in attitude towards Ah Heng and XY, is that Ah Heng never had a set of standards imposed upon her for the man she wanted to marry or love.
I understand how you would mark XY's hypocrisy against her since I don't love her for this either. However, I don't see A Heng as being more justified in having an affair with CC just because she didn't have the requirement of being the only woman in his life or the fact that she really loved CC while XY was only using Jing as a coping mechanism/mask and was stringing him along because that's what CX wanted her to do. If I judge the infidelity itself, I see A Heng's case as worse in terms of degree. Also, I personally place more of the blame on the person who is engaged/married than the person partaking in an affair with the engaged/married person, although I find both behaviors to be utterly reprehensible.
If Gong Gong gave two cents, he would have put his pride aside and free XL and all the men under him.
Agree. Gong Gong is an idiot.
If XY have two cents, she would ride into the sunset and shield XL from CX rage.
The way I see it, Tong Hua didn't give XY the ability to affect XL's final outcome: one person could not reverse the tides of history. I'm inclined to think that CX wouldn't have listened to XY no matter what she did.
Moreover, I don't fault XY for choosing CX over XL. Even though she would have been way happier riding off in the sunset with XL, her loyalty to her brother prevented her from doing this--just like XL couldn't prioritize his romantic feelings for XY over his obligations to Gong Gong and his men. It was an intractable problem because neither was willing to give up on their loyalty.
The way I see it, Jing is a non-entity in this whole novel. Without Jing, XY would still have chosen CX over XL and her own happiness. The ending would also have been similar with XY devastated when XL died in battle against CX's forces. The only thing Jing added to the story was to make everyone dislike XY more because he made her look hypocritical, weak, and love-brained.
TH didn't give us XL's pov, but she did tell us that they were very similar, so I think it's safe to say that having her heart tied to his also gave him comfort during his hard times.
Tong Hua hinted at XL's perspective on XY through his shadow, A Nian. It's undeniable that Tong Hua set up A Nian to be XL's shadow. There would simply not be that many coincidences between these two characters otherwise. How A Nian feels about CX can be used to infer how XL feels about XY.
"Even if Zhuan Xu gege has other women, as long as he’s always good to me, then I care about nothing else.”
-- Vol 2 Ch 7 (Chapter 24)
Ah Nian was dim and wan in Gao Xing, but right now she was like a flower blooming after a rain shower, sparkling with life. Xiao Yao thought that no matter what happened in the future, at least Ah Nian was happy now. Perhaps this was why Ah Nian refused to give up.
-- Vol 2 Ch 7 (Chapter 24)
Even if he’s not with me, I think about the things we say and do together and I’m still happy.
-- Vol 2 Ch 8 (Chapter 25)
Whereas Ah Nian wanted a man who just loved her sincerely. Ah Nian loved the wrong type of man but it was too late for her now.
-- Vol 2 Ch 8 (Chapter 25)
Also I believe that if FFY treated Jing better, XY would have put a stop early on. I don't believe she stuck to jing only because of his promise, but also because she genuinly pitied him and she knew that FFY will never bring him any happiness.
+1. Agree with you. XY was softhearted towards Jing. I think she even admitted that the person doing the saving feels a certain responsibility towards the person who they saved.
I expressed myself wrong. Not in the sense that she replaced the person, but more like the importance of that person, the novel starts with CX being the most important person in the world to her and ends up with XL as her main lead in life, if that makes sense.
Ah okay - that definitely makes sense - thank you very much for clarifying.
IMO XY brought a lot of joy to XL's life. She was his companion the same way he was hers. TH didn't give us XL's pov, but she did tell us that they were very similar, so I think it's safe to say that having her heart tied to his also gave him comfort during his hard times.
It never occurred to me to see it this way, but yes. I believe you are right - thank you for pointing that out. I tend to get blindsided because he was very in tune with her extreme emotions, some of which would have been a source of emotional pain to him, but by the same token, the very same awareness would have accorded him comfort with her presence, just as he comforted her with his presence during her difficult times.
Also, his loyalty wasn't only to Gong Gong, but to all his comrades, who willingly fought the war. It's not that gong gong didn't want to free them, they all thought the right thing to do is to keep fighting till the end, otherwise how could they face their ancestors. By the same principle XL chose to stick up to them till the end.
Agreed. He kept his comrades in his heart over the hundreds of years, and could not, would not abandon them nor their fight for his own interests. He took their struggle as his own, and carried on their fight when they no longer could, staying loyal and righteous to the end.
Xiao Yao could not imagine but she understood what Xiang Liu meant. Similarly, Fourth Uncle clearly could have survived, clearly loved Fourth Aunt and Cang Xuan deeply, yet chose to die along with his fellow soldiers. In this world, there were some ties of comradeship that could never be abandoned even if it meant sacrificing one’s life for it.
Xiang Liu smiled and pointed to his own heart. “Even I have lost count, but they are all in here.”
-- Vol 3 Ch2 (Chapter 35)
